Chris Johnston wrote:In the meantime, I'll "waste" my money on cut paste, considering how long a $15 tub actually lasts.

Chris, you're being ripped off

While Will is correct about the growth mechanisms being identical from pot to landscape growing, there is one point that is not being considered (well it was mentioned in passing). That is rate of growth. While a healthy landscape tree can put on feet of growth in a season and quickly cover wounds this is not true for plants in pot culture. In fact even in the landscape a tree that has a wound covering over half of its diameter will struggle to heal over and most likely will die back and form hollows, obviously not the desired response for most bonsai.

A heavy trunk chop on a bonsai can take 3-5 years to fully heal over during that time we need to stop the rotting that will generally take place, cut paste can help with this (except with amur maple nothing can stop this from rotting)

Just my two pence worth.

Ian

I see this could go back and forth forever, so I will simply let the sources listed speak for themselves, far from theory (as claimed), these sources are backed by university studies or studies of respected horticulturists. While it is certain that landscape pruning and bonsai pruning may differ, the fact still remains that trees in nature, suffering from lightning strikes, wind damage, insect damage, and all other imaginable injuries survived and prospered just fine without the cut paste fairies rushing in to nurse them back to health. In fact, it is the very healing process (without cut paste) that makes collected material so appealing.

I'll end my participation in this debate here by quoting from the article.

"Debates on the effectiveness of certain products, techniques, and methods have raged for years, with each side listing out personal experiences, information read elsewhere, words of the experienced, or quoting friends of friends who heard from some master somewhere. However, few people have actually conducted controlled experiments to determine the validity of such claims, fewer still have actually went outside of the bonsai community and sought out the truth from experienced researchers, horticulturists, or biologists.

Many people seem determined to believe that we can improve on what evolution has produced in the growth and healing aspects of plants. They seem to suspend belief to the point of going against logic and common sense in their determination to accept, at face value, the wildest claims based upon old, outdated research from decades ago, research that has long since been debunked.

Maybe there is a subconscious need for a potion that will create a shortcut or mystify the basic care requirements of bonsai. Yet, unfortunately, no magic brew or miracle mixtures exist yet, plants have the exact same needs and requirements they have had since they first evolved, light, air, water, and nutrients. These needs are all we need to meet in order to assure maximum health, as we style our trees into artistic visions.

Why some people feel that they, though unsubstantiated chemistry and science, can improve upon a plants natural responses to damage and stress is a mystery that may never be solved. Someday this may be the case, but that day is not now."


........and on wound sealants..........


"Thomas H. R. Hall, when reviewing Dr. Shigo’s book, "Tree Biology and Tree Care, A Photo Guide" sums up his thoughts nicely with the following words. "There will not be many arboriculturists or urban foresters in the temperate regions of the world who have not been influenced by the fundamental research carried out by Alex Shigo during his career in the Forest Service of the United States Department of Agriculture. His patient and methodical examination of decay patterns in the woody tissues of trees has revealed the mechanism of wound responses, indicating biochemical processes which isolate the invading organisms. No longer are trees treated like human beings to whom poultices, ointments and all sorts of medicines are applied to assist and encourage healing. Wound sealants are quite rightly relegated to nothing more than placebos whose only function is cosmetic. The concept of barrier zones isolating infection is epitomised in compartmentalization and walling off. Arboriculturists who have headed the findings of Shigo's research, require no further evidence to demonstrate the validity of his teaching."

Revisiting Linda Chalker-Scott, an Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor at the Puyallup Research and Extension Center of Washington State University, we can find her thoughts on what wound sealants do and do not do.

Wound Dressings Do:

Seal in moisture and decay
Sometimes serve as a food source for pathogens
Prevent wound wood from forming
Inhibit Compartmentalization
Eventually crack, exposing the tree to pathogens


Wound Dressings Do Not:

Prevent entrance of decay organisms
Stop Rot

She goes on to explain in her article, "The Myth of Wound Dressings" that all plants, like all living organisms, have natural resistance mechanisms to fight insect attacks, disease, or damage. Covering wounds with sealants inhibits oxidative processes, which in turn will reduce callus formation and subsequent compartmentalization. "


......and in closing.....


"Yet, the myths are prevalent throughout the community and to this day, you can still find advocates supporting the validity of the myths. I doubt that this article will change their minds, as after supporting the myths for so long, they have too much to lose. However, if this article prevents some from believing these myths or encourages a few people to rethink their beliefs based on the research quoted here, then it will be a success. "



Will

Hi ian....

Yea, I was hoping that would get expounded upon. I started thinking about it, if you figure out the percentage of the tree that we "damage" doing bonsai compared to the percentage of a landscaping tree that is "damaged" doing maintence, the bonsai tree has a much larger surface area damaged. So, a bonsai tree, having more damage, warrants different care that a forest tree with less. It's similar to how a burn on an infant is treated differently than a burn on an adult due to differences in physiology and total surface area covered.

How does one figure percentage of tree damaged? I.e. how do you figure out the footage of a tree.... Let's say, a tree measures 12 inches around (circumference) and is 10 feet tall and has no branches. If you peeled the bark off in one piece, you'd have a 1' x 10' area, so 10 sq feet of surface, correct? Errrrrr that sounds odd......is my math right?
If it is, then you'd have to figure the same thing out for every branch... pretending same tree had one branch that was 4 inch circumference and 4 feet long......so that'd be another 3 square feet of surface. Ok, so our pretend tree has 13 square feet (156 sq inches).

Now let's take a bonsai tree..... 1 inch circumference, 12 inches tall....... one square foot of surface. It also has a branch, but it has a 1/2 inch cir. and is 2 inches long... so add another 1 inch so 13 square inches.

It's late, correct my numbers . Let's say we damage the bark of both in a 1/2 inch by 12 inch area. we've damaged 6 square inches....on the forest tree, it has 150 healthy inches still left, plenty of healthy tree.......plenty of resources. However, on our bonsai, we've damaged a bit over 46% of the trees surface...and it's probably going to need a boost as compared to the forest tree. Cut paste here we come!

Tom, the comparison pictures were interesting and show the difference. Was there a particular brand that you used?

Graydon......you're in high humidity Florida also. What species do you use cut paste on?

nsmar4211 wrote:Graydon......you're in high humidity Florida also. What species do you use cut paste on?

Pines, junipers, pyracantha, maple, quince, citrus, magnolia, cherry and so on, basically everything I grow. On pines I apply it to keep the sap in check for a bit and remove it once I feel the movement has slowed, unless continual dripping of pine sap would mar the trunk, branch or pot. If so it stays on until it's time to cut the scar again to promote healing. It does not go back on after the second cut as the sap loss is minimal. I use three different materials (cut dressings or paste) for specific situations.

I watch my City's arborists remove limbs from random trees. I make it a point to go back and observe the healing process months and years after the fact. It's all the same - almost every major cut has not healed over. It slows and slows and eventually stops. Unless wounded again (which I do on my own trees in ground and on bench) it will not cover the wound. The opening left allows water to enter the long dead and porous tissue and build up, promoting rot and eventually leads to major trunk damage and total tree collapse or failure. Removal of a hollow and weak 100 year old live oak is not easy or cheap. What a waste. It takes 100 years to grow a 100 year old tree right?

Would cut paste prevent the above described situation? No, I doubt it. Not practical nor easy to do. Proper follow up care is the only solution. Will cut paste work on my trees? Seems to so far. I'll let you know when I lose a tree to improperly applied or excessive and wasteful cut paste. I can also let you know when an old oak is removed due to hollow and rotten trunk syndrome if you would like. I Just hope it's not being removed from my roof (or what's left of my roof).

For what its' worth bonsai master > master arborist when discussing pot culture of miniature trees.

I wonder were any of these experiments about wound sealer done with the bonsai type wound sealer. There are some pretty bad comercail arborist would sealers that will find no way near my trees.
I would say that alone would need to be considerd if we are to relate this study to bonsai.

I wonder what all the farmers that spend alot of money on foliar feeding would have to say about thye foliar feeding expewriments?

It finally all comes down to this:

When it comes to dispelling myths, I want to see real-world evidence that it really was a myth in the first place. I don't want to see cherry-picked quotes from closely related science. I want to see bonsai results. Until similar work is done by anyone on bonsai trees, it's all just conjecture.

Chris Johnston wrote:It finally all comes down to this:

When it comes to dispelling myths, I want to see real-world evidence that it really was a myth in the first place. I don't want to see cherry-picked quotes from closely related science. I want to see bonsai results. Until similar work is done by anyone on bonsai trees, it's all just conjecture.

If by "cherry picked" you mean quotes from experienced arborists and horticulturists that support my article, yes, like any author, I selected and referenced research, studies, and documentation that supported my premise.

I have heard that "at the Ginkgo Bonsai Center, they never use cut paste. Danny Use says it actually slows down the healing process."


Will

[quote="Will Heath"

I have heard that "at the Ginkgo Bonsai Center, they never use cut paste. Danny Use says it actually slows down the healing process."
Will[/quote]

What I was taught about sealing wounds was "that if it is smaller than your little fingernail don't seal the wound". I stick with that.

Ash

Interesting...with regards to folier feeding and it's ineffeciancy, I wonder how roundup works???

AKeppler wrote:Interesting...with regards to folier feeding and it's ineffeciancy, I wonder how roundup works???

Old argument.

As stated plainly in the article, leaf surfaces do absorb, however, not the nutrients plants need the most and it is very inefficient.

Poison, on the other hand, is quite different than nutrients, a little poison will do the trick, it need not be efficient.

Comparing poison to nutrients is akin to saying that since water mist on leaf surfaces slows transpiration, foliar feeding must work.




Will