Will Heath wrote:

AKeppler wrote:Interesting...with regards to folier feeding and it's ineffeciancy, I wonder how roundup works???

Old argument.

As stated plainly in the article, leaf surfaces do absorb, however, not the nutrients plants need the most and it is very inefficient.

Poison, on the other hand, is quite different than nutrients, a little poison will do the trick, it need not be efficient.

Comparing poison to nutrients is akin to saying that since water mist on leaf surfaces slows transpiration, foliar feeding must work.

Will

And you base this on what? Is there additional data on poisen versus nutrients

AKeppler wrote:
And you base this on what? Is there additional data on poisen versus nutrients

Al,

I have no desire to launch into a drawn out discussion on toxicology, nor is this subject related in any way to foliar feeding. Let us agree that (obviously) the chemicals contained in such products as Round-Up are capable of being absorbed in sufficient amounts by some plants to cause death. Let us also agree that such toxic chemicals are not the nutrients discussed and as such can not be assumed to act in the same manner, move through the plant in the same way, or react the same.

Imagine someone stating that we never have to eat again because we can just rub nutrients on our skin, which is porous and can absorb chemicals. They say that since when we rub mercury on our skin it is absorbed and poisons us, we must be able to absorb nutrients as well....doesn't make much sense does it?

As to the actual subject, foliar feeding, I have listed sources and references of experts and studies that plainly show that foliar feeding is, at best, an inefficient means of supplying nutrients to plants.


From the article:

The common myth of foliar feeding is based on misreading and/or misinterpreting research done over 40 years ago. Since that time it has been shown that foliar feeding is ineffective in almost every aspect promoted by the companies that sell products designed for the practice. In fact, foliar feeding has been shown to work the best only in the case of soil with low nutrient availability, in other words, when a plant has no other option for nutrients. As bonsaists, our soil would never reach the level needed for foliar feeding to do any good.

Bonsai need nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium the most, as do any other plants and these nutrients are the very ones that foliar feeding is the worst at providing.



Will

Why does Persiano foliar feed?

Will,
So far the only thing I have taken from this discussion is that those that disagree with you are ignorant. I am insulted that you feel that ways towards me and many here. Other people here have presented opinion. You feel that what you say is fact which is hardly a discussion.

I respectfully disagree with your opinions and I base that on over 25 years of bonsai education and experience with potted trees. Your collegues assertations on how trees work in nature has no bearing on how the same effects work on potted tree culture, ie; bonsai.

I might suggest a small test if you are right. Spray your bonsai tipped on it's side so as to only spray the leaves with full strength miracle grow once a week for the next month. Please report your findings here I would love to hear your results.

Many people each year are in disfiguring accidents. Many of these people seek out a plastic surgeon to repair damage that would otherwise heal naturally. Sure the wound will heal without the need for a plastic surgeon, but sometimes the asthetic beauty is the goal of the operation. I do not always use cutpaste either, but then there are times it is needed. I display over twenty trees each year at five exhibits a year. I do not wish to have the cut end of a branch showing to the public. Cutpaste will take care of this perfectly. Hard cuts on hornbeam will dieback without cutpaste.

Likewise I can also say, I respect those that wish to not use cutpaste, but the insignificant price of twenty dollars for a jar of something that will last me over 20 years so far is a small price to pay. It insures me that what I do has a chance to get a foothold before it dries out and does harm. It also goes a long way towards adding to my bag of magic tricks in this art called bonsai.

Just sitting back calmly, Al

AKeppler wrote:So far the only thing I have taken from this discussion is that those that disagree with you are ignorant. I am insulted that you feel that ways towards me and many here. Other people here have presented opinion. You feel that what you say is fact which is hardly a discussion.

Your assumptions about my personal beliefs toward those who disagree are merely speculation, and incorrect. You have no idea how I feel, please don't pretend to. May I also ask that you focus on the actual subject matter and not on myself or assumed notions of precieved intent., I never said anyone was ignorant, nor did I imply such. I based my article on what is actually fact, the posted research and studies confirm this and these facts are what should be debated, not myself.

The conclusion I presented in the article in regards to foliar feeding is based on recent scientific studies from professionals in the field and universities, which are referenced clearly in the article. Please feel free to offer the same quality references to support your rebuttal, I would be greatly interested in reading them.

AKeppler wrote:I respectfully disagree with your opinions and I base that on over 25 years of bonsai education and experience with potted trees. Your collegues assertations on how trees work in nature has no bearing on how the same effects work on potted tree culture, ie; bonsai.

How trees grow in nature and how they absorb nutrients is exactly the same as to how they grow and absorb nutrients in a container. Plants do not magically change they way they grow when they are in a pot. They may grow slower, they may be pruned more, they may be trained, wired, and shaped, but the base method of growth and reproduction remain unchanged. Chemicals applied to the foliage or the soil have exactly the same effect.

Nutrients, wound sealants, vitamin B, foliar feeding and other such things all behave the exact same way on plants in the ground as they do with container plants. The argument that one thing will perform differently only because the plant is in a pot is invalid. We use a course soil in containers for drainage, but the roots still perform exactly the same as they do when they are in the ground. The roots do not behave or perform differently in a container, they still perform the same function as roots in the ground. The same is true for all parts of the plant.

AKeppler wrote:I might suggest a small test if you are right. Spray your bonsai tipped on it's side so as to only spray the leaves with full strength miracle grow once a week for the next month. Please report your findings here I would love to hear your results.

I have used foliar feeding and I have come to my own conclusion on it's worth, my experiences are the same as those of the horticultural professionals, foliar feeding has limited efficiency and pales greatly in comparison to plain old fashion feeding methods.

As to your test, knowing that the leading experts in the field say that foliar feeding is far less efficient than traditional soil feeding, why would one waste the mix by not allowing it to run onto the soil? Why would a person purposely choose to use a method that is less efficient and far more wasteful?

AKeppler wrote:Many people each year are in disfiguring accidents. Many of these people seek out a plastic surgeon to repair damage that would otherwise heal naturally. Sure the wound will heal without the need for a plastic surgeon, but sometimes the asthetic beauty is the goal of the operation. I do not always use cutpaste either, but then there are times it is needed. I display over twenty trees each year at five exhibits a year. I do not wish to have the cut end of a branch showing to the public. Cutpaste will take care of this perfectly.

You can paint your leaves purple, if you so desire, however cosmetic considerations were not addressed in the article, the claims of protection, health, and healing were. I will agree that cut paste has some use for cosmetics.



Cheers,


Will

Rick moquin wrote:Why does Persiano foliar feed?

Beats me, why does anyone?


Why did countless bonsaists in the US collect soil from the woods to use with bonsai? Why does the older bonsai books recommend peat, loam, and compost for soil mixes? Why did so many people use and swear by a drainage layer of larger particles in the bottom of the pot? Why do some people still swear by this practice today?

John Naka himself recomended a soil mix that is sorely outdated today based on what have learned about soil and container environments.


Will

In keeping with the myth theme I have come across a new school of thought on the pinching of coniferous foliage. This was brought up recently on another forum and the poster says that we should no longer pinch out the new growth, on say junipers, but use scissors as the pinching causes stress to the tree.

We already know that termination of the new buds help maintain the shape of the branches and promote back budding but the 'new' method seems a bit precious. Then again if you went to the hairdresser (looking at the reverse side of this) and they started to pull out your hair or trim with their teeth you would be in a lot of pain. "Hey lets stick with the scissors and clippers" you would say.

Do plants have feeling like we humans?

Ash