Vented plastic crates also work a treat... I have a nice stack in my garage, all obtained for free from the local supermarkets. They also do look less flimsy than pond baskets.

Pond baskets are by no means, flimsy.

jhill wrote:I just have one question to ask of you. I could be thinking the wrong way but would it be better to grow the tree in pond basket or Vance's nice looking training pots to get as many feeder roots as possible and then transfer into a shallow grow box to work on the nebari and get the roots more horizontal to be placed into a bonsai pot?

Hi John,

You would defeat the purpose of the screen sided planter by removing the bonsai with a mass of fine feeder roots only to place it in a grow box. This is backward, let me explain.

In a grow box, the roots will elongate and thicken, so you are correct that nebari could be easily developed in such a box. However, this is not what you want for a bonsai pot. In a grow box the roots elongate and begin to circle the box, the environment is not conclusive to developing fine feeder roots. So taking a plant out of a screen sided planter (an environment that does create fine feeder roots) and moving it to a grow box will undo all the root development.

In my article, I explain that the screen sided planted should be used last, after trunk, branch, and nebari development in order to create the fine feeder roots needed for life in a bonsai pot.



Will

A well informed answer Will which makes a lot of sense to me. After building the main root structure this seems to be the secondary and very important method for giving good balance to the structure beneath which supports what is above. Do you think this adds to better ramification if the top is addressed at the same time?

Ash

Will Heath wrote:

jhill wrote:I just have one question to ask of you. I could be thinking the wrong way but would it be better to grow the tree in pond basket or Vance's nice looking training pots to get as many feeder roots as possible and then transfer into a shallow grow box to work on the nebari and get the roots more horizontal to be placed into a bonsai pot?

Hi John,

You would defeat the purpose of the screen sided planter by removing the bonsai with a mass of fine feeder roots only to place it in a grow box. This is backward, let me explain.

In a grow box, the roots will elongate and thicken, so you are correct that nebari could be easily developed in such a box. However, this is not what you want for a bonsai pot. In a grow box the roots elongate and begin to circle the box, the environment is not conclusive to developing fine feeder roots. So taking a plant out of a screen sided planter (an environment that does create fine feeder roots) and moving it to a grow box will undo all the root development.

In my article, I explain that the screen sided planted should be used last, after trunk, branch, and nebari development in order to create the fine feeder roots needed for life in a bonsai pot.



Will

I can see what you are saying Will but when does this tree leave the screen sided planter and continue its life in a bonsai pot? What I was thinking (and that is dangerous) I use the pond baskets and have used them for years to get the tree healthy and the roots contained thus developing fine feeder roots. But these fine feeder roots have to become somewhat larger to start a nice nebari.
So you are saying you grow the tree in a grow box to get the trunk,branch, and nebari developed. Then place into a screen sided planter? But to really get the nebari developed would you not use a shallow container (future bonsai pot) to accomplish this?
How do you establish a nice nebari with feeder roots?
Would it not work when re potting to prune the larger roots coming from the larger roots that is forming the nebari, thus causing feeder roots?
Lets take pruning the top of the tree (decidous for example) if you prune the mother and father branches would it not create smaller kid branches causing more ramification? The same goes for the roots. If you prune the lower part of the tree (roots) would you not get the same results as the top? Just something that we all are doing and we may get different results, this is all I am saying.

A Friend in bonsai
John

I had a long reply John, done and ready to post, but the forum hiccuped and I lost it all. I will retype it tomorrow, sorry.


Man, I hate it when that happens.





Will

I build a few hundered grow boxes for bonsai every year for the past few years. Sometimes they are small and sometimes they are very large, like bathtub sized boxes. Typically these boxes are the size of the root mass collected. We will make the box 1" larger on all sides to allow for the new root growth. This works excellent for us.

Now, there are times when I have to build something that is quite a bit larger than the root mass. Some things I have noticed, and are very important to the discussion. I will admit I skimmed Wills article and didn't read it in its entirety.....

Soil.... The soil used will play a very large part in development of feeders, more so than the pot, box or pond basket. It is all about particle size and oxygen exchange. I can't explain the science behind it, but have seen the results several hundred times.

A grow box isn't that much different from a pot in comparison to the earth. Let me explain. A grow box isn't going to produce a ton of big fat roots that can't be dealt with unless you leave the tree in the grow box for 10+ years, in which case the wood will rot or the plastic will be brittle and fall apart. If you are using a good soil that is pumice based then there will be plenty of feeders so you can cut the larger roots off to fit in a pot. How many people actually leave a tree in a grow box for more than a few years? Not much is accomplished in a few years.

Pond baskets are going to develop fine feeders and offer a ton of oxygen exchange to aide in that. But you aren't going to get fast growth (compared to the ground) and if you are using the right soil then the feeder roots will not be much better than in a grow box. Again, it goes back to soil as the main factor for feeders.

The ground will develop trees the fastest and also produce the larger roots with less feeders near the base. You dig a tree out of the ground and plant it in a grow box with good soil and in 1 to 2 years you are ready to move it into a pot. The good soil and smaller space for the roots will develop feeders very fast. I see this and do this probably 1000 times a year.... Field grown trees that have been in the ground for 8-12 yrs go into a 16"x16"x4" container with a pumice based mix and wow, the feeder growth is out of this world in 3 months! Same with collected material, most ponderosa and junipers will grwo roots out of the bottom of the grow box/container and into the ground in a few months. Pumice!

I know an old Japanese man who is a registered bonsai and penjing master with the Nippon bonsai academy in Japan. This man has been a bonsai master for over 30 years. We spoke at length one day regarding strainer, pond baskets, etc.... In Japan they develop JBP this way for a few reasons. 1 JBP grow with great vigor and 2 it is an enviromental hardship that tricks the trees into growing the way they do. The key is the roots dry our between waterings, and this tricks the tree into thinking it has to grow to survive. By using a pumice soil and allowing the roots to dry in between waterings, and feeding often the tree will produce the best results. This same person also told me that if you want to gorw trees in a true grow box, and he used one of his massive tridents as an example which has about an 18" trunk, he said it would have to be in a box that was 5 foot by 8 foot minimum for many, many years with root work every 5 years. Food for thought.

While I have some trees (10+) in strainers and pond baskets the fine feeder root growth is not much better then in a pot or grow box with a pumice/lava mix.

The best feeder roots you will ever see is a trident in 100% pumice....mind blowing, and the tree will grow very fast...

Jason

Here are some great training boxes I bought a bunch of and I've used for years. They come in stacks of 25 ( I think it was) at about $5 each.
They measure 15 1/2" X 15 1/2"

Hi Dale,

Those work great! They are what we call Anderson flat's made here in Portland. We go through about 250 a year and the great thing is they last forever.....These produce root growth like nothing else....excellent!

Thanks for posting this and sharing with the forum.

Jason

I have looked for those "anderson flats' online several times and have not been able to find them. Do either of you have a link for a good source for these?